it should be mentioned: he believes in "the divine," and he is sure that there is a supernatural, spiritual realm. he's just not a Christ follower. he's also a very smart man, and he knows a lot about philosophy and psychology.
it began because i was talking about my class (Extreme Holiness) in The War College. i was sharing how many of the students don't agree with my thoughts, and how it's a fairly controversial subject.
he asked me what was so disputatious about the whole thing.
i was reticent to explain it to him, because i figured that theological argot would not be beneficial to a nonbeliever. so i began to define the controversy, and we ended up talking about nothing but holiness for the next 2 hours. (i'm getting paid for this! haha!)
shocking:
he agrees with my theology more than most Christians i have spoken to!
i narrowed it down to two polemics:
1.) it is possible to live a holy life, not just be forgiven and continue to sin.
2.) it is possible to receive holiness in a single moment, and grow from there-- it's not a point that we need to strive for our whole lives, and never reach.
i am stunned that he agreed with me.
i am especially stunned because most believers i meet do not agree.
point #1
he told me that his big objection to Christianity is the fact that so many Christians accept forgiveness and continue to sin.
ME TOO! it seems that our belief in grace affects us so that we think we'll always sin, and that's why we have Jesus. sounds like cheap grace to me. both my co-worker and i think that there HAS to be a change of heart and action, or else the mercy of God is thrown away.
point #2
he's seen it quite a few massive transformations in his friends lives, because he is involved with NA. he says that it almost always happens overnight. surely, people grow and change gradually, but when God does a miracle in a person, it can happen in a single moment. he said that to say it would take our whole lives to "reach Christlikeness" would be to limit God.
I AGREE! our journey of holiness is not an asymptote. forgive the math-headed-ness. but listen to this:
an asymptote is a curved line approaching a straight line (in this example, the y-axis and the x-axis) and getting closer and closer to intersecting, but never touching. for infinity the fraction of space between the curved line and the straight line will get smaller and smaller, but but it will never disappear.
this seems to be the prevailing thought in the Church about holiness. we think that for our whole lives we will become more and more like Christ, but we'll never be Christlike. that's the problem with thinking of holiness as a point to be reached-- we think we'll never reach it, or we get caught up in legalism and striving by trying to touch that line.
both my co-worker and i think that this "blessing of a clean heart" must be viewed as a gift and a journey, but not a destination. make sense?
the discussion turned toward faith and salvation. hallelujah. keep praying for this guy, if you think of it. actually, pray for both of my co-workers-- each of them are close to repenting. the other guy i work with prayed with me the other day. he prayed, "God, if You're real, show Yourself to me." i'm believing that He will.
anyway-- i'm feelin a bit sad that a nonbeliever agrees with my theology more than the Church does. he's putting us to shame!
15 comments:
What an intense conversation you had with him, not a chat at all, eh?
You are definitely right - there is the blessing of a holy life, offered, encouraged and nurtured by God. A holy ife to be lived right now. The promises and blessings of God for the Kingdom of Heaven are not exclusively speaking about the eternal life we share with Him. It speaks specifically, relevantly to our lives today...we have access to heaven on earth, today.
The letters to the Thessalonians is considered to be the earliest writings of the New Testament, recorded closest to the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Within the early church's spiritual formation at its earliest position for new believers, Paul writes in I Thess 3 and 5, "Live a holy life" "Live blameless" "Protect the holy life". The teaching tied so closely to the eye-witnesses of the life and ministry of Jesus contais: love God with all your heart :love others ;live a holy life. A holy life is not an unreachable, unattainable, uncomparable example...but a holy life is the deepest blessing of the greatest mystery, most humbling reality, of Christianity. Christ in us, our hope of glory! It is only offered as a life is dedicated to Christ in faith.
You are not wrong...you are not controversail. You are deep, and right, and resiliant and foundationally firm and determined to include this teaching with others who need to keep hearing.
The holy life - God's gift to us.
Keep talking to as many people as you can, keep sharing the need to connect with others. Offer people Jesus.
Love your math example! Never apologize about the amazing intelligence God inspired and nurtured in you!
I wonder if the denial of the holiness experience can be refered to as 'having a form of godliness by denying its power'?
Great stuff Olivia, as always.
Spending our whole lives trying to attain to the holiness of Christ seems like trying to find salvation from within, when it is a wholly external thing. I still believe we have our role to play, which is submission and obedience, and that we need to discipline ourselves in those things. But holiness is a gift first, a process second (going from glory to glory).
My math teacher used to say that we didn't know our asymptotes from a hole in the graph.
Grace,
Aaron
Olivia met for prayer and fasting with some friends on Friday 19th... felt compelled to pray for you and your one woman holiness campaign! Keep on believing sister!
Love and prayers
A
Olivia met for prayer and fasting with some friends on Friday 19th... felt compelled to pray for you and your one woman holiness campaign! Keep on believing sister!
Love and prayers
A
Hey girl,
I can both expound and comment extensively on this recent blog, but all my spirit can muster is two words...
WHOA!
and
HALLELUJAH!
~Cindy
That's great that you are there sharing Holiness with others, bring a bigger pic of Christain walk in life. So mean times we just hear about Jesus came and did this and that it, but thats not and your out there showing it to others great job.
praying for him... and you.... and the whole church!
Danielle
oh yeah... and for the unbeliever... true holiness/Christlikeness is ATTRACTIVE to the unbeliever... the fact that we don't often link holiness to evangelism is problematic... they are intrinsic... you prove this in your conversation with 'mr. unbeliever'... :-)
Danielle
very nice
Hey Livy...it was great to see you last week. I hope that congress was exciting.
I've been reading your writings on holiness with some interest. I have, as of late, been attending a Free Methodist church, but find myself in the same holiness movement as when I was growing up in the Salvation Army. I have always been very torn in terms of my personal view of holiness.
On the one hand I respect the notion that it would be great if we could suddenly find ourselves living perfectly holy lives. We would be shining examples of the magnificent power of God's Holy Spirit working right here in our midst.
Yet on the other hand our personal day to day experiences seem to be quite clear that our sin nature doesn't just up and leave at some special moment in our own spiritual journey. I have yet to meet - - anyone who claims to be perfectly holy.
Livy, I think that the main problem I have with perfect holiness manifesting itself in pure, sinless living, is that it collapses under the weight of our own broken humanity. If a person believes that they are perfectly holy and suddenly an impure thought crosses their mind, they are forced to reassess their holiness before God and start all over. It's almost the same as my childhood view of salvation. If I sinned as a child, I would rush to the mercy seat (just in case I should die that day and my salvation would have been forfeited). Yet I recognize now that my salvation was not at stake - not in the least.
I think that holiness is much the same. Regardless of my own successes and failures as a child of God, I am still pursuing holiness and striving after it. If I screw something up - I'm still pursuing holiness nonetheless - and I don't think that I have suddenly become less holy before God (like a morality points chart - or something).
You mention that people are trying to be more and more like Christ and yet assume that they cannot be Christlike. Well we are marred with original sin. Christ was not. I think that this is a confusing idea here - we will not be identical to Christ. We will not have his perfect nature because we are not God.
Yet I think that the point to be made here is that we need to pursue God to the full extent that we are capable. In that sense, we can certainly be Christlike. Christ perfectly fulfilled his mission on earth. I think that it is perfectly right and good for us to strive to accomplish all that God would have for us on earth. But just a note here - this will include day to day sin - AND this is not a surprise to God. He has made provision for this sickness which has infected us. His grace is effectual for both the past, present and future - - not so that we can abuse it - - but because in his wisdom he knows that it is necessary.
John Wesley believed in Christian perfection - and yet I believe we misunderstand what he truly believed. JW believed that something was perfect insofar as it fulfilled its purpose. A chair, for instance, is a perfect chair if it fulfills the function of being a chair. In much the same way, we are 'perfect' if we are fulfilling that which God has set out for us to do - and as we continue in this process of living as we were created to live, we experience a deeper understanding of Him who created us. As we understand more of God's nature we are deeply moved to become more like him (with the Holy Spirit's help) and thus the process continues...yes I'm referring to holiness as a process...and a state of being.
I see it as that which has been given to us and that which yet we still strive after...
Livy - I'm only brainstorming here and spewing out my thoughts. There is much more to be said. I am certainly not trying to stir up a hornets nest with all of your supportive friends. I deeply respect the searching and longing you are experiencing before God. I also deeply respect your fervour and deep, deep devotion both to God and his people.
Grace and peace to you Livy, wherever you find yourself this week.
Blessings,
Jay Locke
Where have we gone wrong in teaching holiness theology? How tiring and frustrating to read that the blameless life (I Thess 5)is available and yet not believe or experience it! ...all my life, 24/7, with the Spirit's help. Great post!
Great post
Be encouraged with your class liv! Remember how in our year I rejected everything that was taught to me about holiness, I argued with you and xander heaps and just refused to entertain the idea of even doing the homework? But what happened at the end, when we nearly graduated....harbour light, on my knees with you next to me asking me what I wanted prayer for and all I said was?.....I want to be holy because Holiness is real, remember? Well i do! Anyways more importantly I hope you can use that as an encouragement when you may get discouraged in class, teach it, then one day Jesus will put it all together for them. You know when you really think about the whole sheep analogy in the bible, we really are sheep!!!!
Love ya liv!!!!
Olivia, it was so awesome to meet you this weekend and talk with you about officership and about the meetings and the future. You are so open about your faith, it is amazing and encouraging to me.
God Bless You!
Allison
I agree with Xander. Check the Amplified Bible translation of that Scripture:
For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny and reject and are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].
2 Timothy 3:5
HEAVY!! Whooo... but man that's some good 'to live by' Bible teaching...
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